Category Archives: Articles in English

Contre un Argument du Musulman Shabir Ally sur le Contenu du Document Q

image

Le musulman Shabir Ally dans ses debats contre le christianisme a dit que le contenu du document Q va contre l’idee que les premiers chretiens croyaient que Jesus ait ressuscite.

Le Document Q

Ce sont 230 versets communs a Matthieu et Luc mais absents de Marc.On croit que c’etait un recueil des dictons de Jesus ecrit vers 50 apres J.
Q fut utilise par Matthieu et par Luc.Dans Q Jesus dit qu’il (le Fils de l’Homme) va mourir dans le dicton sur le Signe de Jonas.

Pour savoir quels sont les dictons par Jesus dans Q:

Ils son plus de 50 dictons,cliquez sur le mot ici:

 

Exemple 1:

Matthieu 12:40:

“Car, de même que Jonas fut trois jours et trois nuits dans le ventre d’un grand poisson, de même le Fils de l’homme sera trois jours et trois nuits dans le sein de la terre.”

Exemple 2:

Luc 11:29-30:

“Comme le peuple s’amassait en foule, il se mit à dire: “Cette génération est une génération méchante; elle demande un miracle; il ne lui sera donné d’autre miracle que celui de Jonas.

Car, de même que Jonas fut un signe pour les Ninivites, de même le Fils de l’homme en sera un pour cette génération.””

Le Document Q a-t-il existe?

On ne sait pas a 100%,on semble que oui.On sait que Luc a utilise plusieurs ecrits pour ecrire son evangile,il le dit.

Luc 1:1-4:

Plusieurs ayant entrepris de composer un récit des événements qui se sont accomplis parmi nous,
suivant ce que nous ont transmis ceux qui ont été des témoins oculaires dès le commencement et sont devenus des ministres de la parole,il m’a aussi semblé bon, après avoir fait des recherches exactes sur toutes ces choses depuis leur origine, de te les exposer par écrit d’une manière suivie, excellent Théophile,afin que tu reconnaisses la certitude des enseignements que tu as reçus.”

Des Exemples de l’Antiquite des Recueils des Dictons:

Faire un recueil de dictons de X personne etait une coutume.

Exemple 1:

Les Dictons de Sextus:

C’est un recueil de 104 dictons attribues a Sextus,un philosophe pythagoreen,ecrit soit au 2e siecle,soit au 3e siecle apres Jesus.

Exemple 2:

Les Dictons des Rabbins (le “Pirkei Avot”):

Au 2e siecle apres J. on a fait un recueil des dictons des rabbins fameux appele le Pirket Avot qui fut inclu dans le Mishna.Le Mishna est la premiere fois que la loi orale des juifs fut ecrite,auparavant c’etait seulement connue de memoire.

Exemple 3:

L’Evangile de Thomas (gnostique):

Ecrit apres 175 c’est 114 dictons attribues a Jesus,et 50% sont des dictons trouves dans Marc,Matthieu,Luc et Jean.Les autres sont gnostiques.

Exemple 4:

Le Manuel/Enchiridion d’Epictete(50-125) (52 dictons):

Il etait un philosophe stoicien,ex-esclave,qui etait boiteux,on dit,a cause de la torture de son maitre.Il n’a jamais ecrit mais son disciple Arrien(95-175) (qui est aussi fameux pour une biographie d’Alexandre le Grand) a fait un recueil de ses dictons.

Exemple 5:

L’Evangile de Philippe (ecrit entre 150-350):

C’est un recueil gnostique de 127 dictons attribues a Jesus.

Meme hors d’Europe on faisait aussi un recueil des dictons pendant l’antiquite:

Exemple:

Confucius (550-480 avant Jesus)

Il est la contribution chinoise la plus brillante a la civilisation.Un grand philosophe.Apres sa mort ses disciples et les disciples de ses disciples ont fait un recueil des ses dictions appele “Les Analectes”.On y trouve la regle d’or enonce 500 ans avant Jesus.

L’Argument du musulman Shabir Ally:

Il est sur youtube dans plusieurs debats.Il dit,en essence: “Q n’a pas un dicton qui dit que le Fils de l’Homme(Jesus) va mourir et va ressusciter au troisieme jour.Cela va contre l’idee que Jesus ait dit une telle chose,que les premiers chretiens avaient la mort et la resurrection de Jesus comme partie de leur croyance.”

Manque Total d’Erudition

Tout erudit serieux du NT sait le suivant:

1.On n’a pas Q.C’est une theorie seulement.

2.Comme on n’a pas le texte,c’est impossible dire:”Q n’avait pas un dicton ou Jesus predit sa mort et sa resurrection au troisieme jour.Le dire serait une irresponsabilite intellectuelle“.

3.Cela est precisement ce que Shabir Ally affirme dans ses debats.

De nouveau,on ne sait pas si le Q originel qu’on a reconstruit contient le 100% des dictons du recueil,le 90% des dictons,le 75%,le 50%.

Advertisements

1 Comment

Filed under apologétique et polémique, Articles, Islam, Islam articles

Was Samson a Terrorist,as the Muslim Shabir Ally says?

In a debate between Shabir Ally and Shmuley Boteach,a famous Orthodox Jewish rabbi,the former said that if one says the Palestinians are terrorists and condemns them,then the Jews have to condemn Samson as a terrorist since he killed people in an act of suicide.The debate is here,1st segment:

Why are Hamas,Hezbullah and Al-Qaida terrorists?

Hamas,Hezbollah and Al-Qaida are terrorists because they intentionally kill innocent men,women and children as part of their military plan.They try to kill as many as they can.

Samson’s Case was Different

In the Samson story we have a different situation,it turns out that Samson was made a prisoner by the Philistines.And they had contempt for Yahweh.In the story they had a religious festival in honor of their god and they decided to bring out Samson as proof that their god was greater than God.It was a religious ceremony offensive to God,and Samson knew it.

He decided to show God was greater and asked God to help him by punishing the Philisitnes.Here is the story:

Judges 16:23-30:

“Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled:

1.To offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god

2.And to celebrate, saying, “Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.”

3.When the people saw him, they praised their god, saying,”Our god has delivered our enemy into our hands,the one who laid waste our land and multiplied our slain.”

While they were in high spirits, they shouted, “Bring out Samson to entertain us.” So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them. When they stood him among the pillars, Samson said to the servant who held his hand, “Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them.””

The text says nothing about children being there,only men and women inside the Temple and on its Roof

“Now the temple:

1.Was crowded with men and women

2.All the rulers of the Philistines were there

3.And on the roof were about 3000 men and women watching Samson perform.

Then Samson prayed to the LORD, “O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes.” Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. ”

Comment

Notice it says the ones killed were men and women,it doesn’t mention children.It was a religious ceremony it which only adults participated and they were saying a false god was greater than God.

Either Shabir Ally is a less than competent and able scholar of Judaism by comparing  Samson to modern-day Islamic terrorists (after 20 years of study) or he was misleading his audience.

Debate between 2 Friends

Michael Brown and Shmuley Boteachare both Jewish and Boteach has a high opinion of Brown as a person and of course they are Jewish brothers,but they do debate.Here are 2 short debates of about 15 min each in total:

Debate 1:

Debate 2:

Check out a Jewish Website that is for Jesus

It is Jews for Jesus:

http://jewsforjesus.org/

One of their latest articles is:“Jesus the Jewish Martyr?”(about Jewish intellectuals accepting Jesus as a fellow Jewish brother):

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/blog/20100724

 

5 Comments

Filed under A VRAI DIRE IN ENGLISH, Articles in English, Christianity, Islam articles

Answering the Accusation that the Variations in the Parallel Passages in the Gospels make the NT unreliable

New Testament

ABOUT THE HISTORICAL PRACTICES OF ANTIQUITY

I had said that the CONSENSUS of scholars(an agreement of at least 95%)believe Matthew and Luke copied from Mark.

Luke copied some 50% and Matthew 90%.When one examines the parallel passages you notice there are differences, some minor, others not. There are several reasons:

1. MARK wrote in bad Greek, it is obvious he was an Aramaic speaker. Many times the changes are due to Luke and Matthew IMPROVING the sentences of Mark.

2. The historians of the time, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, all of them, accepted the practice of PARAPHRASING a person’s words, changing his words. Luke did this on several occasions.

Why did they do that?

Why did they it? Because at that time it was an acceptable historical practice to paraphrase as long as the new words gave an accurate idea or EXPLANATION of the original meaning.Essentially,it was due to the 90% illiteracy of the people and lack of tape recorders,cameras,etc.

ANCIENT HISTORIANS ALSO INVENTED SPEECHES OF FAMOUS PEOPLE

Ask any history professor and he will confirm it. Thucydides, who is considered the greatest Greek historian of all time lived from 460-395 BC. He wrote the ” History of the Peloponnesian War “. It is about the war between Athens and Sparta and during the course a great plague broke out in Athens, killing many, including the son of the great and famous Athenian leader Pericles. Pericles made a famous speech. Now Thucidydes in his book tells us he got some idea of what was said from others but they could not remember the exact words, so Thucydides invented the speech based on what he thought Pericles had most probably said.

In other histories historians who lived many centuries after Alexander the Great invented speeches for him based on how they thought he would have spoken to his troops. The great Roman historian Livy (59 BC-17 AD)who wrote a massive ” History of Rome ” invented speeches for the famous generals based on how he thought they would have spoken.

WAS THE SPEECH BY JESUS IN THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT AND THE ONE CALLED THE SERMON ON THE PLAIN INVENTED?

I highly doubt it was invented. First of all Jesus had been preaching for more than 3 years with his disciples. He would have told the same sermons and parables over and over again many times in each village. That does not mean that every time it would have been said exactly but the essence would have been the same.

So the 2 Different Sermons are:

1.Sermon on the Mount

Matthew 5:1-7:29.

2.Sermon on the Plain

Luke 6:17-49(alot shorter)

Only 15 Minutes

The sermon on the Mount only lasts 15 minutes(read the sermon and it takes 15 minutes to finish). You don’t expect a preacher to only talk that short. You expect him to speak at least half an hour, so by logic he would have also said alot of parables when speaking.

It was Not a One-Time Event

Also there is a difference. The speech by Pericles was a one-time speech. He never repeated it again. It was like the speech by Abraham Lincoln called the Gettysburg Address in 1863 during the American Civil War of 1861-65. But Jesus would repeat his message over and over again and so sometimes he would speak with more detail and at other times be briefer.

What Sermon did Jesus really say?

There is the skeptical question: what sermon did Jesus say? That of the one on the mountain or on the PLAIN? First, it is obvious that they are 2 different sermons, even said in 2 different places. And one is longer than the other. Since the speech was NOT a one-time thing he would have modified it as need arose but maintained the essence of his teaching. So Jesus said both sermons.

Hearing it Over and Over Again for 3 Years

Also Western children, in Europe for example, learn a series of  fairy tales that they have heard many times and so they practically know them by heart, by memory like:

Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Little Red Riding Hood, the 3 Little Pigs, Jack and the Beanstalk, Puss in Boots, etc.

When one retells them one does not use the exact same words every time but the essence is always the same. So in the SAME WAY, the disciples of Jesus had heard over and over  again the sermons and parables of Jesus for more than 3 years in village after village and they could repeat it by heart.

THEY ALSO PRACTICED EXACT QUOTATION

One could do like today, give an exact citation, followed by an explanation, read John 21:18-22. That is the practice followed today by historians.

THE PARTS PARAPHRASED BY LUKE

This is to answer a question often posed by Muslims and others. LUKE copied from MARK but there are parts that Luke has changed. So the accusation is: the NT has been corrupted, it can not be trusted. If one showed that to an ancient Greek he would have said: ” Is the change in words FAITHFUL to the ORIGINAL meaning?” And if the answer had been YES then he would have said: ” Then what is wrong with what Luke did, it is an acceptable practice by historians. ”

THE PARAPHRASES OF LUKE:

The Trial of Jesus

Mark 14:60-64:

” Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, ” Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ” Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One? ”

I AM, ” said Jesus. ” And you will see the Son of Man ( Messiah ) sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. ” The high priest tore his clothes. ” Why do we need any more witnesses? ” he asked. ” You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think? ” They all condemned him as worthy of death. ”

Commentary

As shown by many saying you are the Messiah or the son of God is not blasphemy. SON OF GOD for a JEW simply meant HOLY MAN man or ANGEL. But Jesus answered by pronouncing God’s name in the first person, which in Hebrew is Ehyeh ( I am / I will be,read Exodus 3:13-15) ). That was the BLASPHEMY, he identified himself as God.

Luke 22:66-71:

” At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. ” If you are the Christ,” they said, ” tell us. ” Jesus answered, ” If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God. ”

They all asked, ” Are you then the Son of God? ” He replied, “You are right in saying I AM. ” Then they said, ” Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.” ”

Commentary

Notice that Luke changed the words for Theophilus, the book for who it was written. Luke includes the famous “I AM”(one of God’s names in the OT) but since he knew for a Greco-Roman mentality the phrase ” son of God ” or ” son of a god ” meant DIVINITY, then he changed the way the sentences were ordered.

What did the Centurion say at the Crucifixion?

Mark 15:38-39:

” The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, ” Surely this man was the Son of God. ” ”

Commentary

The centurion certainly did not mean by son of God God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. As a Roman he would have understood as denoting real divinity but maybe not, since LUKE, who says in his introduction that he has researched on the matter, puts it as meaning simply HOLY MAN. So for Luke the centurion in Palestine also picked up the Jewish meaning of the term.

Luke 23:47:

” The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, ” Surely this was a RIGHTEOUS MAN. ” ”

The Resurrection

Mark 15:5-7:

” As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. ” Don’t be alarmed, ” he said. ” You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ ” ”

Luke 24:4-8:

” While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, ” Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” Then they remembered his words. ”

About the Last Words of Jesus

We have 2 versions, that of LUKE and that of JOHN. Which is correct? One idea is that they can be combined, only that one writer chose to emphasize one part and the other the other part. But since Luke paraphrases considerably it is most probable that ” It is finished ” by John were the real last words. Probably Luke thought ” it is finished ” would mean to some that his work had been in vain.

Now in Mark, known by Luke, Jesus says ” My God why have you forsaken me?” quoting from PSALM 22 which begins in despair and ends in triumph and joy. And then in MARK Jesus gives out a “loud cry and dies”.

The Loud Cry contined the Last Words of Jesus

The loud cry would be the last words of Jesus. Now Luke would have understood ” it is finished ” as ” it, my life is ending ” so we have:

John 19:30:

” When he had received the drink, Jesus said, ” It is finished. ” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. ”

Luke 23:46:

” Jesus called out with a loud voice, ” Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. ” When he had said this, he breathed his last. ”

BUT DID NOT JOHN ALSO PARAPHRASE ALOT?

The way Jesus speaks in John is different from the way he does in the Synoptics.Scholars have said John paraphrased Jesus. That would be true to a certain extent but not 100%. The reason is:

The Qmran Documents

They are from the ESSENES and they lived in the time of Jesus. BEFORE it was claimed that the way Jesus spoke in John was not the way ANY Jew of Palestine would speak. It was a “Hellenistic” and “pagan-like” way of expression. But in the Qmran documents the Essenes use a terminology SIMILAR to that of Jesus in John showing Jesus could certainly have spoken that way.

The Case of Q

It is what is believed to have been a written record of many sayings of Jesus making up 230 verses/50 sayings that are found in both Matthew and Luke, but missing from Mark. The sayings are the same or very similar in both authors. Now Q is considered to be from 50 AD, though some put it at 60 AD. There is one famous passage in Q that is very similar to the way Jesus speaks of in the gospel of John.

It is about the Father-Son relationship that is often found in John. In other words Q and the Qmran documents show that Jesus did indeed speak like in John, at least sometimes.

To read the Q sayings go to:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q.html

THE Q PASSAGE COMPARED TO JOHN:

Q passage shared in Matthew 11:26-27 and Luke 10:21-22:

” Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. ” All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to who the Son chooses to reveal him. ”

Example 1:

John 5:19-23:

” Jesus gave them this answer: ” I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to who he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. ”

Example 2:

John 14:23-24:

” Jesus replied, ” If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. ”

Or read Mark 10:17-18 and Matthew 19:16-17 ( here Matthew paraphrases or puts an interpretation of what Jesus said:” Why do you call me good? No one is good but God” )

3 Comments

Filed under A VRAI DIRE IN ENGLISH, Articles in English, Christianity

Did a Young man or an Angel talk to the Women at the Resurrection?Is there a Contradiction?

resurrection-of-jesus-

Skeptics often say there is a contradiction,who announced the resurrection to the women,a young man or an angel?

THE SYNOPTIC RELATION

1.Mark was written first.

2.And MATTHEW and LUKE-ACTS were both written 10 years later.

It is the consensus(an agreement of at least 95%)by scholars that Matthew and Luke read and copied parts of Mark.

3.MATTHEW copied 90% of all that is in MARK,plus he presents MATTHEAN MATERIAL(only found in MATTHEW,independent) and Q MATERIAL(230 verses common to Luke and Mathew,but absent from Mark).

4.Luke copied about 50% of all that is in MARK,plus he presents Lucan material (only found in LUKE,independent) and Q MATERIAL.

So?

Let’s begin from the beginning.

MARK TELLS US IT WAS A YOUNG MAN IN WHITE

Mark 16:5:

“As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man  dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.”

MATTHEW SAYS IT WAS AN “ANGELOS”

Matthew 28:2-5:

“There was a violent earthquake, for an angelos of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.His appearance was like lightning, and his CLOTHES were WHITE as SNOW.The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

The angelos said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.”

LUKE SAYS IT WAS 2 MEN…THEN HE SAYS IT WAS ANGELOS:

Luke 24:1-4:

“On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in CLOTHES that GLEAMED like LIGHTNING stood beside them.”

Luke 24:22-23:

“In addition, some of our women amazed us:

1. They went to the tomb early this morning

2.But didn’t find his body.

3.They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angelos, who said he was alive.”

What is an Angelos?

In HEBREW the word used is melekh,in GREEK it is ANGELOS.It means MESENGER,and in both cases the messenger can be HEAVENLY or HUMAN,the ONLY way to know is by the CONTEXT.There is no contradiction,the young man in white was a messenger (angelos) from heaven,that is all.

In ENGLISH,the word ANGEL has a different meaning,from there the supposed “contradiction”.

One or Two Heavenly Messengers?

LUKE in his INTRODUCTION tells us he got information from VARIOUS SOURCES:

Luke 1:1-4:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.”

Luke’s Sources

They are at least three:

1.Mark

2.The Q Document

3.Lucan Material not found anywhere else.

So LUKE used MARK as a source,and Mark only says “a young man”.From his OTHER sources Luke knows there were at least two young men.No contradiction,nowhere does MARK say it was ONLY one young man:LUKE just gives additional info.

Two Great Debates between Dr. James White and Shabir Ally

The First Debate

“Is Jesus prophesized in the Old Testament?Part 1”:

“Is Jesus prophesized in the Old Testament?Part 2”:

Second Debate

“Is Muhamad prophesized in the Bible?Part 1”:

“Is Muhammad prophesized in the Bible?Part 2”:

 

Leave a comment

Filed under A VRAI DIRE IN ENGLISH, Articles in English, Christianity

Answering the Muslim Accusation that 1 Peter says a Female Slave can be Raped

That is one thing one notices in Muslim readers,lack of perspective.I will explain.Now all the Muslim readers here will agree the NT books are by CHRISTIANS,correct?Not if John is really by John,etc, but at least by a CHRISTIAN.

The Muslim Accusation

They say the NT says a Christian slave has to do ALL that a master says even if it is evil.Muslims have a strange way of thinking.They really do.They say it tell Christian female slaveto let a master RAPE her.

The Text

1 Peter 2:18

Slaves:

1.Yield, to the authority of your masters with all respect

2.Not only those who are good and kind, but also those who are dishonest.”

Read the Whole Context

We have the following situation:

1.That 1 Peter was written by a Christian.A Muslim can say it was not by Peter but he cannot say it was not by a Christian.

2.Now ALL the Christian writers of the NT were against lying and idolatry.

3.So reading 1 Peter 2:18 you have to read the verses till verse 22.

There it says about suffering for doing what is right and how Jesus also suffered.But how did he suffer?By doing what was right,not by doing what was wrong.

It even quotes from Isaiah 53: at the end,referring to Jesus:”He had never sinned and he had never lied.”

Therefore

So if a master were to tell a slave:

1.To tell lies

2.Or do idolatry,which is a sin

No Christian would agree to do it,they would prefer to suffer doing what is right.The submitting to a master had its limits.So also being against being raped is clearly implied,the text makes it clear. She can escape,resist,she does not have to obey.

1 Peter 2:19-22:

“A person might have to suffer even when it is unfair, but if he thinks of God and can stand the pain, God is pleased.

If you are beaten for doing wrong, there is no reason to praise you for being patient in your punishment. But if you suffer for doing good, and you are patient, then God is pleased.

This is what you were called to do, because Christ suffered for you and gave you an example to follow. So you should do as he did.

“He had never sinned,and he had never lied.””

(Note:the author quotes Isaiah 53:9).”

Later on

In fact in 1 Peter 3:17,which is in the same letter,it says:

“For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.”

Commentary

Better to suffer by doing what is good,that means a female slave can resist,not obey, or in some other way,overtly or covertly try to avoid being raped,and yes,that is a risk,one can suffer,but it is good to be against being raped.

In Addition

Also in 1 Corinthians 7:20-21 St.Paul says that if a slave can become free then to do it.He had no problem with that.

In the Koran you have that a master can free his slave if he finds good in him,but it does not say to the slave:”Find your freedom,it is ok.”(read Sura 24:33)

For the Bible in 54 Languages (for friends who don’t know English)

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/

For More on How the Bible is Anti-Slavery

http://www.avraidire.eu/2010/04/slaverythe-koran-and-the-bible/

Introducing a Great Debater,who is very sharp

I have already spoken of Nakdimon,Mary Jo SHARP and Keith Truth(they are all in youtube,just write their names for their debates).One who is very good but not well-known,not yet,is Glorthac.

Glorthac’s Answer to the  SHARP vs Gulam Debate

There was a debate about “Did Jesus Die on the Cross?” between MARY JO SHARP and EHTESHAMM GULAM.Mr. GLORTHAC has made 4 videos answering the affirmations made by GULAM:

 

The Whole Original Debate is Here

And Mary Jo SHARP’s website is:

http://confidentchristianity.com/

Glorthac’s Answer regarding the David Wood vs Ali Ataie

It was “Who was Muhammad?”.He made 6 videos answering Ali Ataie’s affirmations:

 

The First Section of the Original Debate is Here 

 

Leave a comment

Filed under A VRAI DIRE IN ENGLISH, Articles in English, Christianity

How Did Judas Die?About a Supposed Contradiction between Matthew and Acts

We have 2 citations about the fate of Judas in the NT.The situation is:

1.We have it in Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18.

2.One is a clear verse and the other one less clear, we know that from the original Greek.

3.So in the clear verse in Matthew  27:5 we have that Judas hangs himself:

Judas threw the pieces of silver in the temple, left and went to hung himself.

What Matthew 27:5 does Not say

Notice it does NOT say WHERE: in a house, in a field, from a tree, from the ceiling, etc. More than that he hung himself we can not say. End of information.

The Unclear Part of Acts 1:18

Checking in several sources it turns out that in the original Greek we have the words Prenes genomenos. That is the phrase translated as falling headlong. The meaning of PRENES is undeniably ” headlong, head foremost, head first. “

However the word genomenos does NOT mean falling at all. It is translated like that to hide the ambiguity. It means becoming or to become.

What we have in Acts 1:18 is:

” With the reward he got for his wickedness:

1. Judas bought a field;

2.There Prenes genomenos,

3.His body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. ”

What to Notice in the Passage

Notice that nowhere in the Acts 1:18 passage do we have the verbs “to walk” or “to fall”. The way the words are put does not say that Judas was WALKING in the field and FELL head down and hit his stomach which burst open.

NEITHER does the passage say the body of Judas was hanging and when the rope was cut it fell on the ground and the feet hit the ground and the body inclined HEAD DOWN, thus making the stomach hit the ground and bursting.

What Does the Passage Say?

All it says is, to paraphrase it accurately, that ” the stomach of Judas burst open when it ( Judas, or his body ) became head foremost. ”

What does that mean exactly? It what way did the head becoming foremost CAUSE the stomach to BURST open? We do not know. The way the Greek text stands is too fuzzy.

THE WAY CORPSES FALL AND HIT THE GROUND:

Skeptics say a corpse would fall feet foremost or first. That is true, I agree. But when a corpse hits the ground it does not stand on its feet, it:

1. Falls back foremost, falling on its back.

2. Falls sideways, falling on its side.

3. Falls head foremost, head pointing down, on its stomach.

Why would a stomach burst so easily?

It is RARE for a person to fall and just burst his stomach like that. Not that it is impossible, but rare. However accepting the hanging of Judas then since it was the Passover Festival Holidays of several days, no Jew would have touched a dead body to become ritually impure.

The taking down of Judas’ body would have taken several days. In the meantime it would have got swollen. When the hung body would have been taken down by cutting the rope, it is natural for the SWOLLEN STOMACH to BURST OPEN when the feet hit the ground and the body tipped HEAD FOREMOST, making the stomach hit the ground, not the BACK.

ONE EXPLANATION:

1.Some have said here is a scribal error and that the original words were Presthes genomenos, not Prenes enomenos, meaning ” swollen becoming “ ( ” to become swollen “,and  not ” to become head first “ ).

2.One who held this idea was Hyam Maccoby ( 1924-2004 ), a Jewish-British NT scholar who is famous for his view that Paul was not Jewish but a Gentile.It is in his book:“The Mythmaker:Paul and the Invention of Christianity”(1986). A view that has been rejected by all NT scholars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyam_Maccoby

In his book “Judas Iscariot and the Myth of Jewish Evil” ( 1991 ) he says the orignal wording was Presthes genomenosG. Now to be superskeptical one can say it is only speculation, but in the website tektonics,taking the information is accurate, it is stated that in Syriac ( the Aramaic of Syria ), Armenian and Georgian manuscripts the passage is translated as “and becoming swollen”.

That is important, really, because the translator may well have had Greek copies with the words Presthes genomenos.

Conclusion

Again, one is not obliged to accept that explanation so leaving it as Prenes genomenos the impartial skeptic would agree that:

1. The passage as it stands in Greek is very ambiguous.

2. It is rare for a person walking in a field to fall and burst his stomach, a fractured or broken leg is more likely. Unless he fell from a cliff, but no cliff is mentioned in Acts 1.

3. So at best either explanation of what becoming headlong exactly means in relation to the bursting of the stomach is a candidate. But to say the passage 100% says Judas was walking, fell and burst his stomach is inaccurate.

Check it out

The debate between KEITH THOMPSON(also called Keith Truth) vs Nadir Ahmeed on “Is Paul a True Apostle?”(don’t miss it):

 

2 Comments

Filed under A VRAI DIRE IN ENGLISH, Articles in English, Christianity

Can Women Preach and be Ministers in a Church?

I say yes based on the NT.I will give a short version of my argument and then a longer one for those who have the patience to read it in more detail.Plus it includes other things that if one doesnt know all the details are controversial.

That is why women:

1.Are allowed to be priests and ministers in the Anglican ( also called the Episcopalian church),Lutheran,Methodist,Presbyterian and Pentecostal churches.

2.Also in Reform and Conservative Judaism women can be rabbis.But first some introductory information:

PAUL’S LIST OF THOSE IN THE EKKLESIA(gathering,assembly,not a TEMPLE) ACCORDING TO IMPORTANCE

1 Corinthians 12:27-30:

” Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the ekklesia/assembly God has appointed:

1.First of all apostles

2.Second, prophets

3.Third, teachers

4.Then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others

5.Those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? ”

NOTICE PAUL GIVES FIRST PLACE TO APOSTLES:

Also notice he places apostles who are in/among/part of the ekklesia. By apostle Paul did not just mean men but also women, we know from:

Romans 16:7:

” Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. they are outstanding among the APOSTLES ( Note: it means ” emissary, messenger ” in Greek ), and they were in Christ before I was. ”

PAUL GIVES SECOND PLACE TO ” PROPHETS “:

Paul was a Jew and in the OT prophet is not one who says prophecies ( though he can sometimes ) but it means one who says what God wants, gives the message of God. That applied to women also in the OT and NT ( the case of the Jewish Anna, called a prophetess, in Luke 2:36 ).

In Hebrew the word is navi, it means ” messenger. “ They were never forbidden to speak in a gathering of the Jews.

“Navi” is used in the OT for Women

Miriam, the sister of Moses is called a prophetess

Exodus 15:19-21:

” When Pharaoh’s horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. Then Miriam the PROPHETESS, Aaron’s sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. Miriam sang to them:”Sing to the LORD,for he is highly exalted.The horse and its rider he has hurled into the sea.” ”

About Huldah

2 Chronicles 34:19-22:

” When the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his robes. He gave these orders to Hilkiah, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Abdon son of Micah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the remnant in Israel and Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that is poured out on us because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written in this book.”

Hilkiah and those the king had sent with him went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tokhath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District. ”

Also Paul has a Woman as Diakonos ( helper, minister ) in an Ekklesia

It is the same title he gives to men, like Timothy:

Romans 16:1-2:

” I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a diakonos of the ekklesia in Cenchrea. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me. ”

The Case of Priscilla

In Antiquity it was the custom, not always but mostly, that when you had a list of names, that of the most IMPORTANT was placed first.

1.In the NT we have 8 lists of women with Mary Magdalene in it.

2.In 7 of them she is placed first.

3.Which is one reason it is believed she was the most important woman disciple of Jesus.

Notice we have 2 names, that of a man and a woman and the woman’s name is placed first

Romans 16:3-5:

” Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the ekklesias of the Gentiles are grateful to them. Greet also the ekklesia that meets at their house. ”

PROOF THAT WOMEN WERE PRIESTS AND BISHOPS IN EARLY CHRISTINAITY ( check it out in Amazon.com ):

1.” The Lost Apostle: Junia ” by Rena Pederson

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Apostle-Searching-Paperback-Reprint/dp/0470184620/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225811391&sr=1-5

2.” When Women were Priests:Women’s Leadership in the Early Church and the Scandal of their Subordination in the Rise of Christianity” by Karen Torjesen

http://www.amazon.com/When-Women-Were-Priests-Subordination/dp/0060686618/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225811535&sr=1-2

3.”Ordained Women in the Early Church:a Documentary History” by Kevin Madigan

http://www.amazon.com/Ordained-Women-Early-Church-Documentary/dp/0801879329/ref=pd_sim_b_3

4.”The Hidden History of Women’s Ordination:Female Clergy in the Medieval West” by Gary Macy

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-History-Womens-Ordination-Medieval/dp/0195189701/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Priscilla is also in Acts and she Teaches Theology to a Male Jewish Scholar

But first:

Acts 18:1-4:

” After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. ”

Also notice the Wife is mentioned in the First Place,NOT her Husband,not Once but Three Times

Acts 18:18-28:

” Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila(Note:1st Mention). Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchrea because of a vow he had taken.

They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila (Note:2nd Mention)……Meanwhile a Jew named APOLLOS, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus.

He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the SCRIPTURES. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.

He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila (Note:3rd Mention) heard him, they invited him to their home and EXPLAINED to him the way of God more adequately.

When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah. ”

Short Version

EKKLESIA OR TEMPLE?

First of all the word ekklesia in Greek means a congregation,gathering or assembly of PERSONS.It does NOT mean a church building,that meaning appeared later.Ekklesia is a common word for everyday life.If PAUL had meant a BUILDING he would have said TEMPLE,not EKKLESIA.Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:30-33 uses the word for the believers,for PERSONS.

In 1 COR 11 Paul says that women must cover their head and that men must NOT.Now Paul was Jewish and in the synagogue men do cover their head,so this detail about covering the head is a cultural preference of Paul.In 1 Corinthians 11:17-22 Paul uses EKKLESIA again.So we know the covering of the woman’s head is only meant for church.

FALSE TEACHINGS,DISPUTES AMONG PERSONS(the EKKLESIA)

In 1 Corinthians 12 he talks about prophecy and prophets and apostles and uses Ekklesia again. In 1 Corithians 14 he uses ekklesia again and 1 Corinthians 14:37-40 has the famous passage about women to be silent (forever?) in the ekklesia or assembly(of PERSONS).

In 1 Timothy there is the part about women not allowed to have authority over men (forever?),but in Romans 16 he calls Junia,a woman,an apostle and in 1 COR 12 he includes apostles as those having authority in the gathering,assembly(of PERSONS).When you carefully analyze all that you see the restriction on women not speaking in the assembly was temporary due to DISPUTES and scandals  in the group,which are in 1 Corinthians 1:10-13/ 3:3-5/ 5:1-2 / 6:15-16 / 11:17-22 / 15:12-14.

Long Version

1 Corinthians 10 ends in 1 Corinthians 10:31-33. Here we have EKKLESIA:

” So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the EKKLESIA of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. ”

Men and Women in the Assembly ( Ekklesia )

1 Corinthians 11 has alot to say.

THE USE OF THE WORD “WOMAN” IN GREEK AND OF “MAN” IN THE JEWISH SENSE

We have in 1 Corinthians 11:3:

1. ” the head of every Man is Christ

2. ” the head of every Woman is Man ” and

3. ” the head of Christ is God ” :

1 Corinthians 11:3:

” Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. ”

What does that mean?

THE PHRASE ” The Head of Christ is God “:

Paul says elsewhere that Jesus was God, so the head of Jesus, or God is he himself, God.

THE PHRASE ” The Head of Every Man is Christ “:

Paul was a PHARISEE, he knew the OT very well, and in the Torah, in Genesis, the word ” MAN ” means both Man and Woman:

Example 1

Genesis 1:26-27:

” Then God said, “Let us make adam ( man ) in OUR IMAGE, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

So God created MAN in his OWN IMAGE,in the IMAGE of GOD he created HIM;MALE and FEMALE he created them. ”

Example 2

Genesis 5:1-2:

” This is the written account of Adam’s line.When God created man, he made him in the LIKNESS of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them ” man “ .”

Therefore in:

Genesis 9:6 it means both sexes:

” Whoever sheds the blood of man,by man will his blood be shed;for in the image of God has God made man. ”

Conclusion

The word ” MAN ” here means that the Christ is the head of men and women.

THE PHRASE ” THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS MAN “:

To those who know koine Greek the official word for WOMAN or GYNOS can also mean WIFE in popular usage. You will see it in some Bibles in a footnote ” or wife “. In koine Greek the same word can be applied to both cases. That doesn’t mean there is not a specific Greek word for wife, only that when one said ” She is the woman ( gynos ) of X ” one meant ” She is the wife of X “.

A Modern Example

The same happens in French. The official word for wife is EPOUSE. It is rarely used. The word used almost always is femme ( literally ” woman ” ). Even in French language courses for foreigners that is the word almost used; ” Elle est la femme de Jacques “/ ” She is the woman of Jacques. ”

It sounds impolite but that is the way the word is used in French, and also in Greek, though I don’t know if to the great extent as it is used in French. However by the context it is usually easy to tell if femme in the sentence is woman in general or wife.

THE PHRASE REFERS TO A WIFE-HUSBAND RELATIONSHIP

” The head of the woman is man ” if taken to mean WOMAN in GENERAL would go against the GOLDEN RULE and would mean that the following absurd situation is allowed : that an adult son has the right to DECIDE the LIFE and ACTIONS of his MOTHER/ADULT SISTER/ADULT FEMALE FRIEND. Considering the other writings of Paul it refers to ” the head of the wife is man “.

How is Man to be the Head of the Wife?

Well, in EPHESIANS 5,Paul clearly states no less than 2X that the HUSBAND has to ” LOVE his WIFE as HIS OWNSELF ” ( EPHES. 5:28/ 5:33 ). Also in EHESIANS 5:28 you have to ” LOVE your WIFE as though you LOVE your OWN BODY “. That guarantees equality in the relationship.

ALSO:

1 Corinthians 7:3-4:

” The HUSBAND should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the WIFE to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the SAME WAY, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. “Notice it’s a relationship of EQUALS.

The Man should Cover his Head

1 Corinthians 11:4:

” Every MAN who prays or prophesies with his HEAD COVERED dishonors his head. ”

In the synagogues of the time then and today men COVERED their HEAD, including Jesus. It’s a personal preference of Paul. The Jewish custom of a man covering his hair comes from a passage in the Torah, it certainly existed in Jesus’ time. It is very noticeable. KUBIZEK, who was the only friend Hitler had as a youth in Vienna, in his book ” The Hitler I knew “, written after WW II about an incident. They lived together in Vienna and he tells us one day Hitler took him to a synagogue. He told him that whatever he did ” for no reason must you take off your hat. “ They went in and Kubiczek tells us ” in effect, all the men had hats on. “

The Woman is to Cover her Headin the Ekklesia/Assembly

1 Corinthians 11:5-6:

” And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. ”

It Refers to the Woman in the Ekklesia

We know that for a fact because just a few sentences later we have:

1 Corinthians 11:12-16:

” But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

If anyone wants to be CONTENTIOUS ABOUT THIS, we have no other practice—nor do the EKKLESIAS of God. ”

BUT DOESN’T PAUL SAY THIS IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH:

1 Corinthians 11:7:

” A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the WOMAN is the GLORY of MAN. ”

Again,Pauk knew the Torah,and he knew Genesis

He knew that 2 times in Genesis the word Adam ( man ) means both genders.

WHAT ABOUT ” BUT THE WOMAN IS THE GLORY OF MAN? ”

From the LATER words Paul tells us he refers to the EVE CREATION story, where she was created to be the WIFE of Adam, not his SISTER/FOSTER MOTHER/FEMALE ACQUAINTANCE.

PASSAGE THAT REFERS TO THE CREATION OF EVE AS THE WIFE OF ADAM

1 Corinthians 11:8-10:

” For man did not come from woman, but woman from man ( note: he refers to the story where Eve was created from a rib taken from Adam ); neither was man created for woman, but woman for man ( note: here he refers to the part where in Genesis Eve was created to be the WIFE of Adam ). For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. ”

Conclusion

“WOMAN is the GLORY of MAN” in the 1 Corinthians 11:7-10 context is “WIFE is the GLORY of MAN”.

WHAT OF ” THE WOMAN OUGHT TO HAVE A SIGN OF AUTHORITY ON HER HEAD ” ?

The phrase “woman ought to have a SIGN of AUTHORITY on her head”(by COVERING IT),the way the Greek is used,means it REFERS to HER OWN AUTHORITY(the woman’s authority) and NOT to an athority over her.Again,it says “have a sign of authority on her head” and NOT “have a sign of authority OVER HER on her head ”

THEN PAUL EMPHASIZES EQUALITY OF BOTH SEXES IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE:

1 Corinthians 11:11-12:

” In the Lord, however, WOMAN is not INDEPENDENT of man, NOR is MAN INDEPENDENT of WOMAN. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. ”

HERE YOU ARE CHANGING THE MEANING OF GYNOS TO MEAN WOMAN IN GENERAL(when you said it meant WIFE before):

The TEXT indicates THAT(WOMAN in GENERAL) in the phrase ” so also MAN is BORN of WOMAN “. It certainly can’t refer to a WIFE unless a man marries his own mother/sister.

ALSO PAUL EMPHASIZES EQUALITY IN THE EKKLESIA IN:

Colossians 3:9-11:

” Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

The Order to be Silent in 1 Corinthians  14:”Is it a Divine Order?”

We have 1 Corinthians 14:29-40:

” Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of DISORDER but of PEACE.

As in all the EKKLESIAS of the saints, women should REMAIN SILENT in the EKKLESIAS. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the LAW SAYS.If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you IS THE LORD’S COMMAND. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and ORDERLY WAY. ”

The Situation of the Greek Text

In the Greek text we have:

1.All the letters are together, like:

heisgoingtothemarketonsaturdayandhewillseehethen.

It was not till the Middle Ages in Europe that words were separated like today. You can easily see that facilitates grammatical and spelling errors by scribes, plus the cases of INATTENTION due to being TIRED or somewhat BAD EYESIGHT.

2. The were NO PUNCTUATION MARKS in the text: no commas, no periods, no interrrogation sign, no exclamation point, no quotation marks.

What are you Saying?

The text can be like this:

Case 1:

” The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of DISORDER but of PEACE. ( one way of arranging the punctuation signs )

” As in all the EKKLESIAS of the saints, ” women should REMAIN SILENT in the EKKLESIAS. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the LAW SAYS.If they want to inquire about something, they should ASK their OWN HUSBANDS at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you IS THE LORD’S COMMAND. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. ”

Or Like This

Case 2:

” The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of DISORDER but of PEACE ” as in all the EKKLESIAS of the saints. ” ( here is the difference due to the punctuation sign )

Women should REMAIN SILENT in the EKKLESIAS. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the LAW SAYS.If they want to inquire about something, they should ASK their OWN HUSBANDS at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you IS THE LORD’S COMMAND. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. ”

About the “Lord’s Command”( “Order in the Ekklesia”or “Women not Speaking”?)

It is more logical to say the text is to be written as in case 2. The EMPHASIS is on having ORDER in the EKKLESIA. THAT is what Paul was referring to ( order in the ekklesia ) when he said ” it is the LORD’S COMMAND “, not to the idea of women not speaking.

I am still not Convinced

If case 1 is accepted Paul would be CONTRADICTING himself where in 1 COR he says a woman can PROPHESIZE ( speak ) in the assembly but covering her hair.

REMEMBER THE MEANING OF THE WORD ” WOMAN ” IN GREEK

In ” Women should REMAIN SILENT in the EKKLESIAS. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the LAW SAYS.If they want to inquire about something, they should ASK their OWN HUSBANDS at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. ” the question is if the word in Greek refers to ” WOMAN in GENERAL ” or ” WIFE “. I say the second because:

IT HAS THE PHRASE ” MUST BE IN SUBMISSION AS THE LAW SAYS “:

We have ” Women should REMAIN SILENT in the EKKLESIAS. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the LAW SAYS. ”

The Law is obviously that of Moses. In Christianity the Mosaic Law has been replaced but some aspects are valid like the TEN COMMANDMENTS and the idea that the husband is the head of the couple, but AGAIN, under the condition that ” he love his wife as himself. ” ( EPHESIANS 5 ).

The text even says ” If they want to inquire about something, they should ASK their OWN HUSBANDS at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. ” It is obvious by the text here woman means WIFE,that is the most logical conclusion.

Why Forbid Women the Right to Talk in the Assembly/Ekklesia?

ABOUT 1 TIMOTHY AND WOMEN NOT TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER MEN

1 Timothy 2:11-15 

” A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

1.I do NOT permit a WOMAN to TEACH or to have AUTHORITY over a MAN; she must be silent.

2.For ADAM was formed first, then EVE.

3.And ADAM was not the one deceived; it was the WOMAN who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. ”

Commentary

This passage its interpreted by many churches to mean only to a woman being a minister in a church, not to her position in society. Others reject it even applying to that: the reason is that the prohibition is temporary ( based on the arguments I gave in parts 1,2, and 3 or otherwise Paul would really be contradicting himself ). There were false teachings and disputes in Timothy’s ekklesia ( 1 TIM 1:3-8/6:3-5 ) so women were probably involved in spreading false ideas.

THE IDEA OF WOMEN SPREADING FALSE IDEAS IN 1 TIMOTHY IN THE EKKLESIA IS A SUPPOSITION:

It is an Analogy

Then why have the passage ” And MAN was no the one deceived, it was the woman who was DECEIVED “.

It refers to EVE being tricked into a false idea ( false doctrine )by Satan and then later convincing Adam of it. So here Paul is making what is called an ANALOGY or comparison, like saying ” the situation in the EKKLESIA of Timothy is:

1.False doctrines are being spread

2.Many of them by women, like when Eve convinced Adam of a false idea.”

Was it Paul did Not know the OT and Recent Jewish History?

Paul knew the OT, he knew a PROPHETESS called DEBORAH had been the leader of the 12 tribes of Israel in the time of the JUDGES. They ruled from around 1380 till 1050 BC, one after another, till the first Jewish king Saul.
Prophets and prophetesses always TAUGHT.

Paul also knew recent history and that his people had been ruled by a woman less than 100 years ago: Salome Alexandra.

Question: would Paul really order something he knew was approved in the OT?

Answer: Yes, but only temporarily due to false doctrines in the assembly.

The Case of Debora

Notice in Judges 4 Deborah is STILL MARRIED, she is called the WIFE, not the WIDOW of a man. Yet she ruled, she even gives MILITARY ORDERS.

Judges 4:4-7:

” DEBORAH, a prophetess, the WIFE of LAPPIDOTH, was leading Israel at that time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided.

She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, ” The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’ ”

The Case of Queen Salome Alexandra,Queen of the Jews ( ruled 76-67 BC )

She was a well-loved,pious woman, greatly admired. Check her out here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112049/jewish/Queen-Salome-Alexandra.htm

God as a Woman

We have God the Father,the Son and Holy Spirit.In GREEK spirit is NEUTRAL but in ARAMAIC-HEBREW it is FEMININE.So when Jesus talks of the Holy Spirit he refers it to as a SHE.So in the original language of Jesus we have a God that is feminine.This was known to the GNOSTICS and in one of their gospels they refer to the Trinity as the FATHER,MOTHER and SON.

HEAD SCARF AGAIN

Notice Paul here accepts LONG HAIR on a WOMAN as constituting the EQUIVALENT of a HEAD SCARF.So even the real scarf is not obligatory.

1 Corinthians 11:13-15:

“Judge among yourselves. Is it PROPER for a woman to pray to God with her HEAD UNCOVERED? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

But if a WOMAN has LONG HAIR, it is a glory to her; for HER HAIR is given to her as a covering.”

7 Comments

Filed under A VRAI DIRE IN ENGLISH, Articles in English, Christianity