Christian and Muslim Dialogue

Going through my collection of Islamic literature that i have gathered over the years, i found a publication by the late Ahmad Deedat’s IPCI. When i first began having dialogue  with Muslims i was handed the above titled booklet and thought it would be a worthwhile exercise going through it, so as to give the public an insight into how Islam views Christianity.

The ‘dialogue’ is supposed to be between (C) Christians and (M) Muslims, though the names of the ‘questioner’ and ‘answerer’ is not stated. Now, reading the booklet one may feel a Christian of some standing was being asked to explain a number of Biblical issues, which i shall list, and apparently was not able to tackle. For this reason i will list the Q and A from the booklet, and then point out just how Islam uses propaganda to defame Christianity and brainwash the unsuspecting. But first;

Acknowledgment

I am an American raised from childhood in the Christian belief. Until I began my soul’s quest for God, I had taken many matters of importance for granted.

After discussions, reading, and rereading the manuscript of the present Muslim Christian Dialogue, I have gone over the quotations from the King James Version of the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur’an.

I finally announce my shahadah (testimony) publicly in English, then in Arabic: I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah, Who has no partner, and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger (a shhadu an la illaha illa Allah, wahdahu la sharikah lahu wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan ‘abduhu wa rasulahu).

Through this very basic and simple testimony, I believe many people will submit to Allah in spirit and truth.

I hope that this short and easy to read booklet will be read worldwide and will attract many who are searching for a true belief where their minds may find rest and satisfaction.

Roy Earl Johnson

This is his testimony, but is it based upon sound knowledge? The readers can judge this for yourselves.

Note from the Author

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

This booklet has been written as the result of dialogues that I had with members of the Christian clergy and laity. The discussions were polite, pleasant, friendly, and constructive without the slightest intention of hurting the religious feeling of any Christian. It is provocative and a challenge to Christianity. It is indispensable for those looking for the truth and those studying Comparative religion.

C: Christian
M or m: Muslim
(pbuh): peace be upon him
(pbut): peace be upon them

(The latter two phrases are said by all pious Muslims after mentioning the name of a prophet. They will be assumed throughout this booklet).

H. M. Baagil, M. D.
January 1 984

And so to the list of contents.

Part One: Dialogue

 

	The First Contact between a Christian and a Muslim
	The Holy Bible
	The Doctrine of the Trinity
	The Doctrine of the Divinity of Jesus Christ
	The Doctrine of the Divine Sonship of Jesus Christ
	Was Jesus Crucified?
	The Doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin

Part Two: Muhammad in the Bible

 

	Both Ishmael and Isaac Were Blessed
	Criterion of the Prophet by Jeremiah Until Shiloh Come
	Baca Is Mecca
	The House of My Glory
	Chariot of Asses and Chariot of Camels
	The Prophet Like unto Moses
	My Servant, Messenger, and Elect
	King David Called Him “My Lord”
	Art Thou That Prophet?
	Baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with Fire
	The Least in the Kingdom of Heaven
	Blessed Are the Peacemakers
	Comforter
	Revelation to Prophet Muhammad

Argument in favor of Jesus being Placed in a Tomb and not in a Common Grave for Criminals

About Joseph of Arimathea

The gospels say a man called Joseph of Arimathea put Jesus’ body in a new tomb,in a cave.There is John Dominic Crossan,ex-Catholic priest,Irish,is a cofounder of the very skeptical Jesus Seminar in 1985.For him and many others:

1.Jesus was NOT put in a cave,a tomb,it is an invention.

2.Jesus was put under ground.

They say:”The custom then was to put crucified criminels under the ground, in a common grave“.It is true.Yet we have the case of:

Yehohanan

In 1968 was discovered an ossuary(bone-box)with the word Yehohanan.In it were the bones of a crucified man,with the nail on his ankle,the first time one had archeological evidence of a crucifixion.

So?

We have:

1.He was a man about 28 who died at around the same time period as Jesus.

2.He was killed and buried in Jerusalem,like Jesus.

3.He had been condemned as a criminal,like Jesus.

4.The custom then was to put crucified criminels underground,in a common grave.

5.Yet Yehohanan was put in a cave,a tomb,following a religious custom,like Jesus.

It must be said that Flavius Josephus (37-100) has written that an exception was made in the case of Jerusalem,crucified Jews were allowed a decent burial,not to be dumped in a common grave.

What a Song!

It is “As the Deer”,based on Psalm 42:1-2,simply the best:

 

Again on Jesus and the Death Penalty

I had written before on this.Here I make one part clearer,which I think was not that well done:

MUSLIM ARGUMENT

“MATT 15:1-9 shows Jesus was REBUKING the PHARISEES because they had de facto NULLIFIED the Mosaic law of “death for he who curses his parents.”

The Pharisees and others had done it,no application of the death law for some 12 cases in Mosaic law.

MATTHEW 15:1-9:

“Then some PHARISEES and TEACHERS of the LAW came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,”Why do your disciples break the TRADITION of the ELDERS? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

THEN…..

Jesus replied, “And why do you BREAK the COMMAND of God for the sake of YOUR TRADITION(Oral Law)?

For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'”

AHA!

Muslims argue Jesus rebukes them for breaking 2 Mosaic laws:honor parents/ death for he who curses them.Here Jesus just MENTIONS those 2 laws,they existed.So Jesus says,for them:”Kill children who curse parents.”

WRONG

It says COMMAND of God,NOT commandments(plural).Jesus is REBUKING them because they BROKE ONE law by their TRADITION(they broke “honor parents”)

NOT CONVINCED

We know that by “You BREAK the COMMAND of God for the sake of your TRADITION” means:

1.Jesus was rebuking them for their position on ONLY ONE of the 2 laws(“honor parents”).

2.Because Jesus HIMSELF explains what he meant:

HIS EXPLANATION

“But you SAY that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘WHATEVER HELP you might otherwise have received from me is a gift(Note:money) devoted to God(NOTE:to go to the TEMPLE),’he is NOT to ‘honor his father’ with it.”

ANALYSIS

In his OWN explanation of what law he was rebuking them for he ONLY mentions Mosaic law “honor your parents”.He nowhere says “honor your parents” and “death for those who curse parents”.Jesus approved of the Pharisee position of the non-application of the death penalty as I showed in my first article.If not he would have said:

“But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it AND YOU SAY not to kill those who curse their parents.”

WHY MENTION THE OTHER MOSAIC LAW THEN?

Jesus in his speech was very expressive.He mentioned it to emphasize his POINT(breaking of law to honor parents,which is not a death penalty one):

“You,Pharisees,by X TRADITION are making others dishonor parents by NOT helping them,which breaks Mosaic law.
Oh Pharisees don’t you know Mosaic law says “death to he who curses them”?You,Pharisees,with X tradition are TELLING others to CURSE their parents by saying they will NOT help them with MONEY at all,it ALL goes to the Temple.”

CONNECTION OF 2 LAWS:

That’s why he mentioned the 2nd law.MATT 23:2-3 shows he APPROVED of their interpretation/ application of MOSAIC law.It shows Jesus approved of them saying:”Do NOT apply the death penalty for cursing parents.”
MATT 15:1-9 is different,here he:

1. DISAPPROVES of their non-Mosaic tradition of NOT helping parents if the MONEY that should be for them instead goes to the TEMPLE.

2.By NOT helping them financially with X tradition they are CURSING them.

3.By CURSING them they are DISHONORING them.

4.They,the Pharisees,with X tradition,are the CAUSE of the cursing and dishonor of parents.They have responsibility,and THEY deserve DEATH,since the death penalty for those who “cursed their parents”is NOT the FAULT of those Jews who obey the Pharisees but the Pharisees themselves by convincing them to follow X TRADITION.See my point?

SO JESUS ENDS WITH:

“Thus you NULLIFY the word of God for the sake of your TRADITION.”

2 Great Books

MARK GABRIEL is an ex-Muslim,now Christian.He was a professor at Al-Azhar University,Cairo,the most prestigious in the Muslim world.He has written:

Coffee with the Prophet

About a Muslim student who is beginning to lose his faith,goes to Mecca on a pilgrimage,meets a man called SHEIKH AHMED in a cafe,who turns out to be MOHAMMED himself.

http://www.amazon.com/Coffee-with-the-Prophet-ebook/dp/B00243FOTI/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&m=AZC9TZ4UC9CFC&s=books&qid=1272036215&sr=1-8

Journey into the Mind of an Islamic Terrorist

Unique book,fascinating.The first and only book that gives the LOGIC and ARGUMENTS that are used to REALLY CONVINCE young Muslims to kill and blow themselves up.When MARK GABRIEL was a DEVOUT Muslim he heard them and was NOT convinced but his best friend Kamal was.He became a killer.Later he was captured,tortured and released.In the end Kamal became a Christian and was executed in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-into-Mind-Islamic-Terrorist/dp/1591857139/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272036823&sr=1-1

The Old Testament says the Messiah's name is Yeshua (Jesus)

FIRST,NETZER(branch) IS A MESSIANIC TITLE:

The rabbis agree.Why?Because the word appears in the following(ALL considered by them to be Messianic):

Two Times in Isaiah

Isaiah 4:2-3:

“In that day the NETZER of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem.”

Isaiah 11:1-2:

“A shoot will come up from the stump of JESSE;from his roots a NETZER will bear fruit.The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him,the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,the Spirit of counsel and of power,the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.”

JESSE:he was the father of king DAVID(1 SAMUEL 16:1-13).

Two Times in Jeremiah

Jeremiah 23:5-6:

“The days are coming,” declares the LORD,”when I will raise up to DAVID a righteous NETZER,a KING who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety.This is the name by which he will be called:The LORD Our Righteousness.”

Jeremiah 33:14-18:

” ‘The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.” ‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous NETZER sprout from DAVID’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.

In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety.This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.’

For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the THRONE of the house of Israel,nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’ ”

The Targum

When the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity in 537 BC they no longer spoke HEBREW but ARAMAIC,very similar, like Portuguese-Spanish are today.So when the OT was read in Hebrew it would be orally translated/interpreted/summarized.In the 1st century AD it was finally written down,the TARGUM(Hebrew for “interpretation”).

SO?

The TARGUM says Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 9 are about the Messiah(today the rabbis say no).The Targum also says these ZECHARIAH passages are Messianic:

Zechariah 3:7-8:

“This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.

” ‘Listen, O HIGH PRIEST JOSHUA(Note:Joshua was high priest around 520 BC)and your associates seated before you, who are men SYMBOLIC of THINGS to COME: I am going to bring MY SERVANT,the NETZER.”

SO?

JOSHUA is HEBREW,in ARAMAIC it’s YESHUA(Jesus).Joshua-Yeshua are symbolic of the future,and it mentions NETZER(Messiah).

THEN….NETZER’S NAME=JOSHUA-YESHUA

Zechariah 6:9-12:

“The word of the LORD came to me:”Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah.

Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, JOSHUA son of Jehozadak.Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘HERE is the MAN(Note:Joshua) whose NAME is NETZER, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.”

Analysis

It says the NETZER’s(Messiah’s) name is JOSHUA.Simple.

A Great Suggestion

MARY JO SHARP has very well-written articles in her website:

http://confidentchristianity.com/

One is “The Fraudulent Claims of the Jesus Myth Theory”(that he never existed):

http://confidentchristianity.com/articles/Fraudulent_Claims_of_the_Jesus_Myth_Theory.html

What is His Name?

It is the contention by Islam that Allah and the God of the Bible are different Gods.

‘Prophet Moses in Hebrew called Him, Eloha.
‘Prophet Jesus in Aramaic called Him, Alaha.
‘Prophet Muhammad in Arabic called Him, Allah.
‘There is none worthy of worship but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is the last and Final Messenger of Allah.”

The above statement is largely a matter of Muslim propaganda, not the result of careful scholarly study and not promoted by reputable Muslim scholars. Furthermore it is contrary to the revelation God gave through Moses, the rest of the Prophets and His final revelation in and through Jesus Christ.
Is the One Moses was told to call ‘I AM,’ and the One Jesus cried out to from the cross, “Eli, Eli, why have You forsaken Me?” the same as the Allah of Islam? Or is Allah altogether different?
What of those Christians in Arab lands who in their Bibles read ‘Allah’ for the name of God! S:29.46 says, “our God and your (Jews & Christians) is one.” If so, why all the fighting?

The OT says the Messiah will be Yahweh

Language usage changes with time.In Hebrew, before, not today,but before it was:

1.Common to pronounce the word Yahweh (till the 3rd century BC).

Not today,the word Yahweh has been substituted by the word Adonai(Lord).

2.Altars and even the city of Jerusalem were given names with the integral name of God,which is Yahweh:

Genesis 22:14

Exodus 17:15

Judges 6:24

Jeremiah 33:16

Ezekiel 48:35

But not today,never at all.

So?

The Jews have NEVER,never,never named their children Yahweh this or Yahweh that.

The Equivalent

If a JEW named his child using the complete name of God,YAHWEH,like in Eli-Yahweh(my God is Yahweh)it would be blasphemy.

It would be saying the human being is God Incarnate,Yahweh himself.

It is as if a Muslim named his child:

Allahu-Akbar (God is Great)

Allahu-Rahman (God is Merciful)

Allahu-Kamal (God is Perfect)

They never give Allah as a personal name.What they do is give,as a name:

Abdul-Allah:slave of Allah

Abdul-Rahman:slave of the Merciful,etc

What Jews do when Naming Children

Then and today:

Jews use a “portion”and I repeat,a portion of Yahweh’s name as part of a Jews’ personal name.

Eli-jah is a compresion of Eli-Yahweh,or “Yahweh my God”

The Messiah as Yahweh

Jeremiah 23:5-6:

It is about the Messiah,the rabbis agree on this:

” “The days are coming,” declares YAHWEH:

1.”When I will raise up to David a righteous Branch (Note:a descendant of king David)

2.A  king who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety.

3.This is the name by which he will be called:Yahweh Tsidkenu (Yahweh our Righteousness).”

That Implies a Virgin Birth

Why?The rabbis agree the Messiah will be descended from king David.

Where it says the Messiah will descend from David

It is in:

Jeremiah 23:5-6

Jeremiah 33:14-18

A Descendant of Jesse(father of king David)

It is in Isaiah 11:1-2.In 1 Samuel 16:1-13 is the whole story of Jesse and his son David.

Since the Messiah will:

1.Be a descendant of a man,king David

2.And be Yahweh at the same time

3.He can’t have a biological father.So a virgin birth is implied.

(For the Bible in English and alot of other languages):

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/

What Moses did regarding names

In Exodus it is Moses who names an altar,an inanimate thing, with the name of Yahweh

But he did NOT dare call a human being with the name of Yahweh

Numbers 13:16

“These were the names of the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land.

And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun, Joshua.”

Notice Moses changed Hoshea’s name to Joshua,which has a part of the name of Yahweh,but not its entirety.

Great Website: Messiahtube (like youtube)

It has videos of “Jesus or Muhammad”also:

http://messiahtube.eu/mod/pages/world.php

Is the Case for APOLLONIUS of Tyana as Good as that of Jesus’?

Many skeptics point to his case.He was a 1st century AD pagan teacher,with a reputation for miracles.A great website that treats this and more is:

http://www.tektonics.org/index.html

A Good overview:

http://www.tektonics.org/mainhub.html

Tektonics Articles on APOLLONIUS:

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/apollonius.html

Does the Gospel of John say an Eyewitness wrote it?Yes,the Beloved Disciple(John)

John has 2 conclusions:

John 20:30-31

John 21:24-25.

We have a person called “the BELOVED DISCIPLE” who appears:

1.At the LAST SUPPER,with Jesus:John 13:21-25

2.At the crucifixion,Jesus talks to him:John 19:25-27

3.Goes to the EMPTY TOMB with Peter after the resurrection:John 20:1-3.

CHAPTER 21 (last one) NOT WRITTEN BY THE BELOVED DISCIPLE

The beloved disciple appears in John 21:7-8.We know John was among the group of people mentioned in John 21 since in:

John 21:1-2:

” Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias. It happened this way: Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together.”

In the NT “sons of Zebedee”=John and James(not James,half-brother of Jesus,another James):

Marc 3:16-17:

“These are the twelve he appointed:

Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter) James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

THE BELOVED DISCIPLE AMONG THEM (IS IT JOHN?):

John 21:7-8:

“Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.”
Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.”

CONCLUSION OF JOHN 21 SAYS THE BELOVED DISCIPLE WROTE THE BOOK OF JOHN

John 21:17-25:

” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

Peter turned and saw that the BELOVED DSICIPLE was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

Then the Text says

“1.This is the DISCIPLE who testifies to these things

2.And who wrote them down (My Words:it refers to the BELOVED DISCIPLE).

3.We know that his testimony is true (My Words:it refers to the testimony of the BELOVED DISCIPLE).

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Suggestion

You have heard of youtube.There is also Muhammadtube.com,with videos about Islam,it is very critical:

http://www.muhammadtube.com/

Why David Strauss,Skeptical German NT Scholar,would Reject Shabir Ally's Theory that Jesus Swooned on the Cross

Shabir Ally is the best Muslim debater and he says Jesus did not die on the cross,but fainted.

Resurrection for a Jew

It meant that even if the person had been badly wounded he would be able to walk,jump,run like a normal person,even with wound scars.If not , if the man or woman was alive but very weak,they wouldn’t have considered it a resurrection,he had fainted in crucifixion,was unconscious.But if resurrected,even with scars,he would jump and run.

For Example

If a Jewish soldier:

1.Who had been thought dead in battle,with scars and wounds

2.Then 2 days later they found he was still alive,barely but alive

3.They would have said it was survival,not a resurrection.

About David Strauss

He was a German scholar,a skeptic  (1808-1874) who wrote a famous “Life of Jesus” in 1835. In that book he said Jesus was not God and never did any miracles.

In 1835 he put the nail on the swoon theory to which Shabir holds.He knows all this,in his 20 years of research.Strauss said if Jesus had survived his disciples,seeing him almost dead,would not  have thought of it as a resurrection but as a survival.History shows they did think of a resurrection.

The Jesus Seminar(the most radical NT group)holds to a resurrection belief by the disciples.Realizing the validity of David Strauss’ argument  and also other technical reasons skeptical,atheistic,agnostic,Jewish scholars accept Jesus’ death.

The atheist NT scholar of Germany,it’s most famous one,Gerd Ludemann has called the death of Jesus an INDISPUTABLE FACT,a position held by the Jesus Seminar.Shabir Ally is not one who in his research “goes where the evidence leads” but is trying to convince Islam is true even when the evidence is against him.

 

More on Why Atheistic Scholars reject Shabir Ally's Arguments Against Jesus' Death

The first article on this is here:

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/why-shabir-allys-arguments-about-jesus-not-dying-are-rejected-by-atheist-scholars/

Argument 4 of Shabir

“Crucifixion does not pierce any Vital Organs.”(to thus cause death)

He cites Catholic scholar Father Raymond Brown’s  “Death of the Messiah” where Brown states:

1.“Crucifixion pierces no vital organs”

2.And so we can’t know what really killed Jesus.

That is True but it is Also True 

1.Flogging pierces no vital organs either yet people can be flogged to death.

2.Stoning pierces no vital organs either,yet people die.

3.The same for a heart attack,no vital organs pierced.

Also Brown accepts the death of Jesus.We can’t know exactly what killed Jesus:if too much loss of blood,or heart attack,or lack of air,or shock,or all or a combination,but based on medical and scientific evidence he would have died.Shabir isn’t logical.

About Roman Military Customs

They were brutal,deadly.And not just in the military.We have:

1.In Acts 12:7-19 Peter is freed from prison by an angel and escapes.King Herod finds out and he orders the guards in charge to be executed.

2.In Acts 16:23-29 Paul is in prison and miraculously all the prison doors open and the man in charge of the prison thinks they have escaped and was about to kill himself when Paul stops him.Why kill himself?Because he would have been killed anyway,for letting a prisoner get out.

3.Petronius was a great Roman writer,the author of the first novel.He died about 64 AD,near Jesus’ time.His novel Satyricon has a story calld The Widow of EPHESUS.

It is about a beautiful widow decides to die with her husband’s body,not eating or drinking.She’s in a cave.A handsome Roman soldier who is in charge of a dead body of a crucified man(to make sure the body isn’t stolen)finds her and seduces her and they are happy together for several days.

The family of the crucified man steal the body,the soldier finds out and declares to her he will kill himself for the penalty was that he be crucified for letting the body be stolen.She say no and insead they hung the body of the dead husband on the cross and he is spared.

Pilate was told by the Centurion that Jesus was Dead

In Mark 15:44-45 that’s what happens.Pilate asks him if Jesus’ died.The centurion affirmed yes,he was taking responsibility for it.If later Jesus was proved to have survived the centurion would have been punished,most probably killed.HE knew the consequences of not making sure.Pilate was in effect saying to him:

“Ok,now you are taking the responsibility for this and you know what happens if he is still alive.”

It’s all these details scholars consider in the process called “going where the evidence leads.”

Argument 5

“In Antiquity there were Case of the Dead Waking from a Coma”

Shabir cited cases in Antiquity of apparently dead people coming back from a coma,etc,found in a scholarly book, in a debate with Michael Licona.True.But they:

1.Had not be been flogged.

2.They had not lost alot of blood.

3.They had not been crucified and suffered shock.

They are like people today who suffer a heart attack or brain hemorrage and apparently die,then come back from a coma.Today we have no crucifixions.Does Shabir make a comparative analysis of the 2 cases like an impartial scholar?No.

Why Shabir Ally's Arguments about Jesus not Dying are rejected by Atheist Scholars

Shabir Ally is the best Muslim debater but his arguments are bad.I will show why.He holds to the swoon theory,that Jesus didn’t die on the cross,held also by Ahmed Deedat.

First,the reasons why atheistic-agnostic scholars,like those of the Jesus Seminar (with some 70 members) accept the death of Jesus.Shabir Ally in his debates says “2,000 years have passed and scholars take it a man who lived 2,000 years ago is dead.”That’s not why.

The Reasons

1.Jesus was flogged and suffered loss of blood.

2.He suffered shock as a result of 6 hrs of crucifixion.

3.No food or water for about 40 hrs in the cave.

4.No medical aid for about 40 hrs in the cave.

5.Roman military customs would guarantee his death.

6.Even if he had survived,his survival would not have been accepted as a resurretion by his disciples.It is based on skeptic David Strauss’  argument against the swoon theory and what resurrection meant for the Jews.

Read the Argument of David Strauss against the Swoon Theory

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/more-on-shabir-allys-bad-arguments-for-jesus-surviving-crucifixion/

Argument 1 of Shabir

“The centurion was a Believer in Jesus”

He cites Mark in his debates,saying “it shows the centurion was a believer in Jesus and would have prevented his death.”

Mark 15:37-39(Young’s Literal Translation) says:

“And Jesus having uttered a loud cry, yielded the spirit,and the veil of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom,and the centurion who was standing over-against him, having  seen that, having so cried out, he yielded the spirit, said, `Truly this man was Son of God.'”

Analysis

The text says the reason why the centurion called Jesus a son of God was because of the noble way Jesus died(not because he was his disciple),it says “standing over against him” and “having seen that…said:”truly this man…”Shabir Ally is unscholarly.His argument is,as scholars say, Ad Hoc (contrived).

Argument 2 of Shabir

“Pilate was surprised Jesus died so soon”

Mark 15:44-45:

“Pilate was surprised to hear that he should have already died.And summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the corpse to Joseph.”

Analysis

We have that:

1.Crucified people lived for days

2.But Jesus died in only 6 hrs.

Frederick Zugibe,a doctor who has investigated death by crucifixion,is the world’s greatest authority on it,with about 20 years research,has stated:

1.That depending on the person and other factors,one could die in a few hrs.

2.He has proved it using technology and scientific measurements.That’s also what scholars consider.

3.But Shabir in his arguments ignores such vital information(which he certianly knows),he doesn’t tell his Muslim listeners.Would an impartial scholar ignore this when coming to conclusions?No.

Here is information on Dr.Frederick Zugibe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Zugibe

Argument 3:

“A Friend of Josephus survived Crucifixion”

Three of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus’ (37-100 AD) friends were crucified during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.They were taken down by his intercession before general Titus,given medical care,yet two of them died. It appears in Josephus’ Autobiography.

In Jesus’ case there was:

1.No medical aid.

2.He had gone through a full crucifixion process.

3.Plus later no food and water for circa 40 hrs.

4.His chances of survival after the crucifixion,if he was still alive,were far less than that of Josephus’ 3 friends(there a 66% mortality rate,who by the way were undoubtedly given food and water).
Shabir doesn’t tell his Muslim audience this.

Read the second part of all this,about Shabir Ally’s arguments

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/04/more-on-why-atheistic-scholars-reject-shabir-allys-arguments-against-jesus-death/